Curse

thedeadlyassassin · Apr 20, 2011, 09:05 AM // 09:05

With group PvP dying, so does the Paragon Class. It's a very useful class in PvE, since you actually have a group and all skills are effective (hence, there is the popular Imbagon, which will be nerfed). However, in PvP, besides maybe GvG and HA (which are dying), the Paragon is maybe the most useless class.

The Dervish recently got a huge update, which totally shaped the class into something different and useful. I ask that the paragon receives a similar update to make it's class useful.

The first problem I have with this class is that it is a last choice class in PvP, even in GvG and HA. There are many builds that work well with a paragon, but there are many other builds, that don't include paragons, that are more successful. Why is this? Let's look.

There are only two elite Spear Mastery Skills
And they're pretty useless. First is Stunning Spear, which deals good damage and adds the dazed condition to your enemy. The problem with this skill is that it requires 10 adrenaline, and if it misses by a player dodging, it's a pain. And to build the adrenaline is a pain in the rear side. My suggestion is to reduce the adrenaline requirement to 7 or 8, and also make it move twice as fast. It's suppose to be stunning after all.

The other is cruel spear, which is actually quite useful, except that the deep wound condition (which makes it useful) is only applied if the opponent is not moving. Simple - remove the latter.

This class needs a group to be used

In the Popular PvP, most people, believe it or not, do not work as a group. Arguably RA and JQ/FA/AB are the popular PvP's in this game. In these, you're mostly playing solo, except AB, which is near dead unless there is a ZPvP for it. Because of this, a lot of skills are useless as well, and only a few of them are used just to give the paragons build the bonuses, rather than the group. Anthem of Flame and GOTEs are the main ones. So my suggestion for this is to make each skill useful, by making the person using it get a benefit. Maybe change the attribute "Leadership" to add health and energy at the start and at the end of the shout/chant.

Spears

A lot of Paragon skills increase the attack speed, however, some these are difficult to maintain unless your build has a lot of chants or shouts, which, probably don't for a paragon to be effective when fighting alone. Spears, like Scythes, should have a slight increased attack speed.

Lack of conditions

Paragons can add bleeding, dazed, deep wound, and burnin conditions. Most other professions can add at least more. The paragon is built like a ranger that has less range and has damage over degen. The only way to really add more is cross professions. However, if you add other skills, you must take away others in your build that make your paragon as effective as possible.

Lack of defense

For a character with 80 AR, I do not believe there are any blocking skills for a paragon. The heals are also fairly weak. Some chants/shouts give (weak) hex/condition removal, but other than that, the paragon is pretty defenseless besides their AR. Having no skills to blind, block, or dodge make the paragon a standing duck.

A bunch of classes into one, but nerfed

The Paragon is like a warrior, with 80 AR, but without blocking. It's like a ranger without condition spreading or max range. It's like a ritualist except for instead of weapon spells it's called "chants". It's like a monk but again, has chants instead of real heals. Ultimately, alone the paragon is fairly weak.

My main suggestion is really just to upgrade the paragon. I don't care if my ideas are added into the game, but the paragon stands as the most useless class right now. As group PvP is dying, so is the paragon, and it's time for an improvement for this shadowed class.

*lemming* · Apr 20, 2011, 09:39 AM // 09:39

What would buffing a midline class already capable of outputting unhealthy amounts of physical damage do for the game that would be beneficial in terms of the big picture?

Missing HB · Apr 20, 2011, 10:09 AM // 10:09

The problem with paragon in my opinion is that it's a profession more likely used as support or additional damage...Thus more likely going to be used to help a team , for a spike , defensive anthems ,etc and require coordination....

That's why they got no use in other outposts than HA and GvG , since other professions using a spear are usually more useful , and a rit will usually be better at defense....

That's exactly same point as the OP...But well , i don't really know how to make the profession that useful and even , i just think the paragon is one of the forgotten things by ANET ( with polymock , zaishen elite , codex , etc....)

Coast · Apr 20, 2011, 10:11 AM // 10:11

no ty, paragons were nerfed for a reason and they should be kept this way in pvp

cantalus · Apr 20, 2011, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedeadlyassassin

My main suggestion is really just to upgrade the paragon. I don't care if my ideas are added into the game, but the paragon stands as the most useless class right now. As group PvP is dying, so is the paragon, and it's time for an improvement for this shadowed class.

anet, for whatever reason, policy or incompetence, can't be trusted to buff/nerf anything

kedde · Apr 20, 2011, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Paragons are still as retarded a concept as they were over 3 years ago. Keep them nerfed into the ground and the game will be better for it.

Maver1ck87 · Apr 20, 2011, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Lack of Conditions: Deep wound was pro I hurd!?!?! Name me another class that can deep wound reliably at range? Assasin..... ummmm....... yeah rangers have more conditions but thats cos they are RANGERS! they are supposed to... (also, as u mentiuoned they have reliable daze skill as well!)

Lack of Defense: WTF - 80 base AR, -20AR for Aggressive, +16AR from shield, +10AR from shield Mod, +5AR from spear, +10AR from centurions = 101AR against all dmg types before any skill modifiers <--- thats not lack of defense, you just dont know how to set up your armour

Spear: IS RANGED DMG! Therefore hard to prot, easy to switch targets! If you buff this all that happens is midline spike dmg becomes far too OPed and you get another boring spike meta! It is balanced atm (yo probably dont understand that but it is) its average (as all skills should be) IF your good with it and coordinate well, its poor if you have no team coordination <-- if you make it good with no team coordination then it becomes seriously OPed in high end PvP. Its not the paragons fault that you think its weak, its your fault and the 7 people around you!

Needs to be in a group: Guild wars is about teamwork, NOT solo play, you always have a group with you! Of course if you have 8 rather than 4 people a paragons effect is greater but so is a ritualist, or arty heals on a monk, or necro orders buffs, so are curses, so are condtions etc.... EVERYTHING is more powerful in larger groups as you can synergise more skills with each other! Paragons are just another example!

Sorry, your arguments are invalid! I love paras too, and yes maybe a few areas of them could be buffed (very slightly)
e.g.
Motivation skills (very slight or will be way OPed) probs just minor number tweaking to boost the heals a bit.

Command shouts e.g. Stand your ground: Target ally gains +24AR for 5 seconds when standing still (12 command) 10e, 15 sec recharge.

This way it becomes a more challenging (requires ability to watch their frontline etc...) class to play well and gives it the buff necessary to see it have some use again however not creating OPed defensive spike teams where everyone has like 100AR (as with the old stand your ground) Furthermore having more individual targeted shouts will mean they have more use in smaller party sizes!

Leave the dmg alone tho, please!!!!

yum · Apr 20, 2011, 02:06 PM // 14:06

I don't see how swinging a sword at range is healthy.

/no

Honestly just making spear moves twice as fast is enough omfgwtfpawnagepewpewpewlazser!!!

chuckles79 · Apr 20, 2011, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I'm tired of the myth that spear damage is higher than other ranged weapons.
This is most likely said by non-paragon primaries who use +5 energy spears and think it's gee whiz-golly better than the staffs and wands they would be using otherwise.
Removing PvE only skills, the paragon is very difficult to use in PvP and is only effective within a limited scope of coniditions.

Create a PvP paragon or take your pve paragon to a pvp area and look at the skills. Almost all the non-spear skills have PvP splits and the PvE versions were already majorly nerfed before the PvE/PvP skill split.

This was done solely and purely solely to accommodate GvG, and the disproportionate effect paras originally had on the GvG meta.

Anet PvP focus has been on GvG since day one, and remains there. If it's bad for GvG it's going to be buffed or nerfed.
Since shouts and chants can affect 8 on 8 games disproportionately, Anet has essentially given up on paragons in PvP.

Lastly, the OP mentioned imbagons being nerfed (I assume by making SY less effective or barred from para bars). That will be the end of GW for me (I play my para the most) unless they buff the native paragon skills to an equally usable level or change the role of the para like they did with dervs and rits.
The only thing that could keep me interested in that point would be a nerf simultaneously to the following other skills; Signet of Sprits, Soul Twisting, Ether Renewal, Searing Flame, Unyielding Aura, Healer's Boon, Spiteful Spirit, Discord, Panic, Psychic Instability, Shadow Form, Way of the Assassin, Avatar of Balthazar, Avatar of Grenth, Barrage, Burning Arrow, Deny Pain, and Hundred Blades.

Then I'd be fine with it because everyone would quit with me and I wouldn't feel like I was missing anything.

Woodelf Archer · Apr 20, 2011, 06:17 PM // 18:17

I'm not sure. If the derv update is anything to go by, Paragons will be buffed into oblivion. Then the new meta will be insane damage from minlines or OP defence skills like pre defensive anthem nerf, resulting in nobody ever dying.

NerfHerder · Apr 20, 2011, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Create a PvP paragon or take your pve paragon to a pvp area and look at the skills. Almost all the non-spear skills have PvP splits and the PvE versions were already majorly nerfed before the PvE/PvP skill split.

This was done solely and purely solely to accommodate GvG, and the disproportionate effect paras originally had on the GvG meta.

Anet PvP focus has been on GvG since day one, and remains there. If it's bad for GvG it's going to be buffed or nerfed.
Since shouts and chants can affect 8 on 8 games disproportionately, Anet has essentially given up on paragons in PvP.

I agree with this. If you have an idea for Paragons or any PvP skill changes, you must have an extensive knowledge of GvG and use that as template for said changes. Otherwise it will never see the light of day. GvG is the standard for PvP skill balancing and often flows into PvE.

I can easily see Paragons getting a buff in PvE with only a few tweaks to skill numbers, and becoming much more useful. However, in PvP the Paragon is a nightmare to balance, simply due to the nature of its mechanics (ie. unremovable party wide effects, high armor ranged attacker, must be within shout range of 6-8 players for energy mngmt, etc.) Any one thing they can do in PvP another profession can do better. They dont fit the mold that all the other professions do.

In PvP and even in PvE I like to think of the Paragon as like Quon Sang, the Turtle Dragon from factions. The eternal paradox, not one thing or another. A reminder that we will never fully understand what Anet is thinking.

dasmitchies · Apr 20, 2011, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Buffing Paragons for PvP is a nightmare waiting to happen. 1 Paragon = balanced. 4 Paragons = Imba. That is why they were nerfed. Very little counters exist in the game to balance shouts and chants. Once applied they can't be removed. Unlike weapon spells they stack and 4 Para's will stomp all foes. Spears were nerfed because of fighters, sins and rangers. The primary attribute for those classes made spears brutal.

chuckles79 · Apr 20, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Just as strip enchantment found it's way onto a lot of secondary prof bars during the enchantment heyday, they could just buff vocal minority and ulcerous lungs. Make them cheaper in PvP and/or last longer.
Making Soothing more powerful, soothing images, etc.

They could conceivably buff paras in PvP, but it would be a major burden for the live team that has all but promised that major profession updates are a thing of the past.

Now that I'm off my soapbox, I'd like to mention two things about paras in "popular" PvP areas. Paras are very good at keeping shrines in JQ. I find that Never Surrender and Angelic Bond is one of the few combos that can nullify a contagion bomber. Spear swipe is a nice daze skill and coupled with bleeding and maiming spears it can crimp the other team's offense nicely.

I tried my para at FA last week and I was nicely surprised. Again angelic bond and never surrender shouted on the other side of the gate or amongst friendly NPCs (kurzick side for me) can add some survivability to what are otherwise cannon fodder. Not to mention that anthem of flame/weariness and GftE on a NPC rangers is nice.
Those are all things that a ST rit can do, but add in the fact that you aren't relying on destroyable spirits, and that Holy Spear is armageddon for hostile minion masters and healing rits....

The downside is that these are situational. In JQ the para is gimped against traditional caster cappers and does not have the offensive ability to cap a shrine.
In FA, your effectiveness depends on the makeup of your team. A typical Kurz team has 1-3 rangers but if you end up with all mesmers, you are definitely a 5th wheel. Additionally a physically offensive team can make the kind of build I mentioned above more of a liability.

I'd like to see Defensive Anthem (PvP) buffed in duration but at increased cost (25e if you must) and decreased effect. Maybe 10-18 seconds a 20% chance to block, ends when you attack.
That would not be so bad because A. NPCs auto attack anyway and B. with 10 seconds of use, 25 sec recharge, and 2 sec. cast it's not exactly a god skill.

Pugs Not Drugs · Apr 20, 2011, 08:38 PM // 20:38

i think that paras are fine at the moment. especially that two para build that was running around a while back. perma agressive refrain, and shouts and chants going out everywhere was godlike, especially since teh elite slot was free for like expel or empathatic.

the thing about paras is that there needs to be at least two of them to reach their full potential, which means they need to have the team build built around them. they just dont fit into the current meta (dervs, mesmers, dervs, dervs, and eles)

Skyy High · Apr 20, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

This was done solely and purely solely to accommodate GvG, and the disproportionate effect paras originally had on the GvG meta.

Yes. And?

It's a support-based midliner, it only really has a role in team-based formats by design. There's not much that can be done to fix that. Certainly, straight buffing of the class is ludicrous; it's balanced where it is in 8v8 formats. If you want to see it turned into something that it's not (namely, a class that can stand on its own without relying on a team), you're probably going to be disappointed. GW already has a skirmisher midline character (ranger), so throwing another one into the mix with higher armor is probably not going to work out so well. That, and the fact that the Live Team has said that no other classes are getting huge overhauls anymore.

Lanier · Apr 20, 2011, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

That, and the fact that the Live Team has said that no other classes are getting huge overhauls anymore.

The team said that no other classes are getting dervish-large, 9 month overhauls anymore. Skill updates are still possible and (I certainly hope) probable, cause paragons certainly need skill updates.

tealspikes · Apr 20, 2011, 09:35 PM // 21:35

If you want to mess with spear damage then here's and idea - change some spear attacks into melee attacks similar to spear swipe (especially ones that cause deep wound) and then reduce the range of spear chucking. That way you have a somewhat unique playstyle of switching between melee and ranged depending on the situation.

jazilla · Apr 20, 2011, 10:33 PM // 22:33

/notsigned. Although, the Motivation line could use a buff in PvE to give us Para-friends more builds to use.

I wish paragons were a more viable class to play in RA. Sadly, they just weren't designed for 4v4. The other classes at least feel like they add to a team in there. I usually roll secondary elites in RA whilst on my para.

Jbrown · Apr 21, 2011, 11:40 AM // 11:40

I'm fine with buffing para's in PvE since it is obviously soooo unbelievably hard that you just can't seem to beat anything with the current builds out there, but leave PvP alone. Only reason paragons seem so weak is because everything else is just way to overpowered.

Paragons are good but not amazing, hence why it is probably one of the most balanced classes out there.

Missing HB · Apr 21, 2011, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Yes but buffing paragon only in PvE would lead to some complications :
- making spear skills better would lead to players using W/P , R/P , etc.....
- making support skills better won't really change stuff.... Usually you need a few paras in your team as support to be efficient . If you consider it's really hard to find 3-4 paragons in PvE to team with and that heroes IA is desastrous , people would rather use ritualist skills....

Paragon is quite flawed by it's definition. It maybe would have needed more original and unique skills compared to other classes , or just maybe doesn't fit at all with 2 profession system... i don't really know